Are Stats Killing Hip Hop?

On the one hand, I'm sympathetic to those who are feeling 9th Wonder's comments about fans being fascinated by stats and the effects of such fascination on the art of music.

On the other hand, who's to tell fans what to enjoy?  They're the fans so they should define their fandom as they will.

One has to wonder if 9th Wonder would be so concerned about stats if Little Brother had sold more records.  One also has to wonder how you would get guys to not ruin something with stats.  I mean, it's almost impossible to have a good discussion about sports without having to listen to this or that litany of numbers that are ultimately beside the point.

Given that hip hop is incredibly male dominated, it should be no surprise that a stats aspect would emerge that seems irrelevant to one's appreciation or not of a piece of music.

Comments

[R]

Clyde,

You have some good points. However, I'd like to add that in sports the object of the game can be measured statistically. It's how you differentiate between good and efficient sports teams/players and bad and inefficient teams/players.

Now with artists and music, the main point is to make good art. A task that is not easily quantifiable or even possible based on subjectivity.

The main goal of a record exec or marketer is to sell as much music as possible.

The point of my post, and I think what 9th Wonder was trying to say, is that there has been a shift, or bait & switch, with the way hip-hop is being analyzed and discussed.

Instead of topics revolving around the actual crafting of the music, people are talking about, and looking at, the music via a marketing/sales lens.

That's not a bad thing on prohiphop.com but when an artist is in promotion mode for his album (50 Cent [also in my post]) and he's dedicating a large chunk of his on-air interview to discussing the marketing of his singles instead of the actual music I feel it's doing a disservice not only to himself but the art-form as a whole. It's not inspiring and has nothing to do with the music part of the business.

If artists themselves are discussing their music strictly in product/commodity terms how can anyone expect the music to be treated as something culturally important, long-lasting, and stimulating by fans, and even execs for that matter?

[Clyde Smith]

If what you're quantifying is who won and who lost, then numbers of wins and numbers of record sales are pretty comparable.

If this is just a variation on the industry bad, artist good argument, I'm not sure it's a big improvement on earlier variants.

But your argument may become stronger if one considers that sport has become commodified into sports and that much of what one could discuss in terms of efficiency is not at all relevant to what sport is actually about.

The fate of sport as a collection of sports valued for who won and how many statistical objectives were achieved in the process may be the outcome which you, 9th Wonder and others are now seeing emerge in music.

Actually, if you want to go the purist route, which I think you do, viewing art and sport as similar realms might be quite useful.

[R]

Clyde,

What I'm arguing is that the fine-line between being an artist and a business man is tragically blurred. An it this point of intersection that now seems to be a bigger conversation then the creative process.

Statistics are great for validating your art because it means people like what you're doing. But all this still means that you created something and the act of creation is still what these statistics are measuring.

So why not talk about the very thing you're trying to promote? Instead of the means of promoting?

I don't follow you on the sports analogy. Statistics completely verify whether or not you're playing the game the right way or the wrong way. However, record sales do not.

It's a super-simplification to think that the top selling albums are the most artistically redeeming. I know that's not what you're arguing exactly but you get my drift.

Why are record sales + spins the only stats we have? Why aren't there statistics that show the cultural impact or influence of music/styles/modifications?

How do we measure the influence Organized Noise's production on "Still Standing" had on "crunk?" A style that was first on a barely gold album in 199? but 3-4 years later was THE SOUND for mainstream radio and generating top record sales.

I'm not afraid of numbers and I don't think sales necessarily mean that your album is good or bad based on sales either.

So am I really arguing a purists view point?

Yes and No.

I believe in trying to make music free of commercial constraints. But I also believe that when the music is done that you fully hustle it. What I don't believe in is trying to be a businessman behind the mic. It's short-sighted and lends to making something temporary vs. permanent and important.

I think the best business strategy is to try making remarkable music because it makes the hustle much easier.

[Clyde Smith]

"I don't follow you on the sports analogy. Statistics completely verify whether or not you're playing the game the right way or the wrong way."

Only in fairly simple ways on the stats. Check some philosophy of sport. Might open your eyes on some things.

Otherwise, carry on!

[Jarrett]

I'd have to say that people are impressed by stats, particularly in the hip-hop culture were certain things, like sales, reported income, etc., count as you "winning" in the game.

[B. George]

The most food in most cities is sold out of Wal Mart and Aldi's!!!! But nutritionists will tell you that that food is the worst for people that are trying to be healthy. A Whole foods store in most cities struggle, because people haven't made the 'choice' to find the healthier food!!!! THE POINT!!!! The amount sold of anything doesn't mean it is of the highest quality!!!! STATS are a bad way to measure quality in any realm!!!! SPORTS a whole different conversation!!!!

[harold anthony]

Rappers are competitive. Humans love to measure things. In business success is measured by sales. However music is not a sport, but mc battling is, which is something we are pioneering at the moment, with stats and a fantasy league. A rap battle league that in 5 years will generate more revenue that the top 5 rap artists combined. the project is called World Rap Championships.

[Clyde Smith]

I never knew much about the history and philosophy of sport and play until I went to OSU and took a couple of courses with some folks in those fields which are rather obscure.

But they would probably make a similar argument about sport and play becoming degraded with the development of sports and the sport industry in the same way you guys talk about music being degraded by the music industry.

So perhaps the degraded nature of professional sports and the even more degraded nature of amateur sports as a filtering and funneling mechanism is strong support for your case regarding the effects of the music industry.

In any case, what I'm saying is that you guys are making a claim about artmaking, in this case music, as having some inherent something or other that money and numbers screwed up. That's pretty much what happened to play, hunting and battle as they became modernized endeavors, if you step back from your current perspective and look at the bigger picture.

[R]

Clyde,

I'm not saying that monetizing an art-form ruins it. What I'm saying is that if the sole point of discussion is based around industry talk then the art suffers.

If everyone is talking like a big-wig who will be thinking about solving or conceptualizing new art?

[Clyde Smith]

"If everyone is talking like a big-wig who will be thinking about solving or conceptualizing new art?"

Shouldn't you follow that with some kind of product announcement?